Spoiler Warning: Superhero News discusses Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, the second installment in the DC Extended Universe. We’re going to discuss the film as if you, our super friends, have seen it with us. No holds barred.
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First of all, I love you guys and I love your show. I really do. And because of that, that’s why it’s so frustrating listening to you discuss this film. Because I like and respect all three of you. I really, really do. BUT YOU ARE COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT OF THE MOVIE.
You’re not evaluating the film for what it actually is. Instead, you keep comparing it to this platonic ideal in your head of who these characters are *supposed* to be and what the story *should* have been. And because of that you’re walking away frustrated and disappointed in what you saw based on a false assumption. And it makes you sound like the whiny fan boys from the 1980s (pre-Tim Burton’s “Batman” when I was a kid) who would criticize and dismiss the old Adam West “Batman” TV series because it wasn’t dark and gritty the way Batman was *supposed* to be. But it was an unfair standard then to hold that TV series to (because the producers of that show weren’t trying to do the thing that fans were criticizing them for not doing), and it’s an unfair standard now for you to hold “BvS” to (because Snyder and company weren’t trying to do the thing you’re criticizing them for doing). It’s like criticizing “The Godfather” for not being funny enough. “The Godfather” isn’t a comedy, it never pretended to be a comedy, so it would be asinine to fault it for not being comedic enough. “BvS” wasn’t trying to give you the bright and sunny Silver Age Superman, so don’t criticize when it doesn’t deliver on something that it was very upfront about never intending to deliver on in the first place. It’s an unfair standard to hold *any* film to. And it undercuts and diminishes any criticisms you level against it.
Instead, accept the film for what it is on its own terms for what it’s trying to do and then evaluate it based on how well it achieved those goals. And in my view, based on what I think the film was actually trying to do (present a subversively subtle political message), I think it was remarkably successful, so much so that it’s actually inciting in fan boys and critics the very outrage that it’s mocking in the film.
Much like “The Dark Knight” was a subversively subtle political commentary on the idea of the “surveillance state” during the Bush years (How much of our freedoms are we willing to give up in order to feel safe? And once we give up those freedoms can we still lay claim to being the free people that we claim that we are?), and much like “Battlestar Galactica” was a subversively subtle political commentary on the idea of war during the Bush years (How many of our ideals are we willing to give up in order to defeat our enemy when giving up those ideals one by one takes us closer to actually becoming more and more like the enemy we’re fighting?), “BvS” is a subversively subtle political commentary on the social climate of the Obama years. Specifically: How petty tribal allegiances stoke fears in us of “the others” who are different from us and cause us to tear down those who otherwise represent the ideals that we support simply because those “others” are different from us.
You don’t like how Superman shows no joy in what he’s doing? THAT’S THE POINT OF THE MOVIE. Superman is acting as the savior that society says that it wants and yet it rejects him when he does the exact things that society is asking for SIMPLY BECAUSE HE IS AN ALIEN. And the point of this movie is to show how this Superman (and again, it’s THIS version of Superman that we’re evaluating, NOT the platonic ideal in your head of what you think Superman is *supposed* to be) is weighted down by the hate and fear and suspicion directed toward him by a world that he is nevertheless going to continue to protect even as they try to ostracize him. People criticize the advice that Kevin Costner gave young Clark in “Man of Steel,” but the point of “BvS” is to show that Jonathan Kent was actually right: People DO fear his son once they realize what he is capable of doing. “We want someone to save us they say, but because the savior isn’t one of us, we’re going to tear him down based only on our tribal insecurities.”
Again, just like “The Dark Knight” and “Battlestar Galactica” were direct allegories of the Bush years, “BvS” is a direct allegory of the Obama years. Whether you agree with Obama’s policies or not, he has done what the American people said they wanted: Stop a worldwide depression and save people’s lives by allowing them access to basic healthcare. And yet, because the person doing this is an “other,” ugly American tribal instincts took over to the point that the very people he was helping turned on him and convinced themselves that he was literally trying to destroy the country. THAT is what “BvS” is commenting on. That’s the point of the story it’s trying to tell. So critique it based on how successful it was at telling (or not telling) that story in a coherent, engaging, and interesting way.
And that’s why I don’t take your protestations at the beginning of the video that this isn’t a “Marvel vs. DC” thing all that seriously. Marvel doesn’t do social or political allegory in its films (“Civil War” may be different, but it’s not out yet so we don’t know). DC does. And yet you’re holding this DC film to the Marvel standard (e.g., criticizing it for not being escapist entertainment) when that’s not what DC is trying to do. Again, you wouldn’t criticize “All the President’s Men” because it doesn’t have any impressive action sequences (because it never intended to have any action sequences), so don’t criticize “BvS” for not being something that it never intended to be (uplifting, escapist entertainment). You may have a personal preference for lighthearted, escapist entertainment and that’s perfectly legitimate. I have a personal preference for dark, complex, melancholy storytelling. But when I watch a Marvel film I never deem it a failure for not being dark, complex, and melancholy BECAUSE THAT’S NOT WHAT IT’S INTENDING TO DO. I enjoy the Marvel films for what they are (not what I would prefer them to be), and when I find fault with them it’s based on how successful they were or were not in achieving the goals the filmmakers set out for themselves.
I also take issue with your assertion that Superman should have been redeemed by the end of the film. And I agree, Superman should find redemption at some point, the public should rally around him at some point. But this is only CHAPTER TWO in a TEN CHAPTER STORY! I don’t understand why critics (particularly fan boy critics) have trouble grasping this. Just like not every conflict in a novel is resolved by the end of chapter two (otherwise what’s the point of the rest of the book), it’s completely unrealistic for you to expect that every challenge thrown at these characters will be resolved 20% of the way through the story. Snyder and company have demonstrated that these stories will progress, that there will be character development and forward narrative momentum along the way. For instance, “Man of Steel” showed just how destructive saving the world can be (and it was criticized for doing so). Therefore the next logical narrative step then is to do what “BvS” actually does and show the ramifications of that—a world that is wary of Superman because, even if he saves us, the destruction left in his wake is arguably just as bad if not worse. Unlike the Marvel films which essentially hit the reset button at the end of every movie (that’s not a criticism, that’s just a description of something they do), DC’s films so far show actual narrative progression. They move forward. Actions have consequences, and they are going to show the consequences of those actions. So don’t jump on “BvS” because it hasn’t resolved everything. There are eight more chapters to come, so have patience. I’m guessing that you’re going to get exactly what you want as the longer story reaches its climax, but in the interim don’t expect Snyder and company to shoot their entire load right at the beginning.
I think the part of your conversation that crystalizes why it’s so hard for me to take your views on this film seriously is when you ask the question, “How can you distill this movie down to one sentence?” Seriously? SERIOUSLY?!? How about, I don’t know, maybe “Batman versus Superman”? Honestly, I’m not sure how much simpler you could make that or how much more obvious the answer to your own question could be. And that’s why this analysis the three of you are presenting is so frustrating. You’re asking for answers to questions that are literally right there in front of you, but you’re so distracted by your own biases that you can’t even see them when they are literally right in front of your face (e.g., the basic storyline of this film is THE F-ING TITLE OF THE MOVIE WHICH IS LITERALLY PRINTED ON THE SCREEN IN FRONT OF YOU DURING THE TITLE SEQUENCE).
I could keep going on and on. The sad thing, though, is that you’re not alone in this. Other online fan boy critics are also so biased and myopic in their views of this film because it doesn’t adhere to their pre-conceived notions of what it *should* have been based on their own personal preferences. And while I agree with you that, yes, these are just your own opinions so people shouldn’t get so upset about it, the fact is—whether you want to acknowledge this or not—by virtue of the fact that you have tens of thousands of followers on this site, you therefore have a very big megaphone. And when you make these misguided criticisms of a film like this, people listen. And if people listening impacts the box office performance of this film to the point where WB decides to stop making films like this (films that I and a lot of other people actually like and think are complex and interesting and emotionally affecting) then, yes, I am going to get annoyed. You’re Spider-Man fans, so remember: “With great power comes great responsibility.” If you’re going to use your megaphone then at least please try to present your views based on what was actually on the screen instead of complaining that it wasn’t some alternate version that you personally would have preferred seeing instead. That is an absolutely impossible standard to hold any work of art to.
End of rant. Again, I really like you guys. I look forward to subsequent episodes of this series. I would have no problem with you not liking this film if you critiqued it for what it actually was. But you’re not. And that’s unfair.
Bravo. Intellegence is very hard to find on the net. It’s refreshing when you do come across it.
Excellent analysis buddy, enjoyed the passion that came out there!
As much as I agree with everything you put, I just wish this ideology that you have alluded to – which I hope is what the the filmmakers were trying their hardest to represent – was done in a more…..clinical fashion. Regardless of what they were trying to achieve, the plot ‘holes’ and some decision making let down a fair chunk of the movie and the overall feel.
I really did like this film, and I REALLY don’t get the hate is seems to have garnered – and I agree with you a lot of it comes from peoples preconceptions about what they thought they were going to see – but its when you analyse it all (and there is a LOT) that you either get your kind of brilliant analysis which elevates it or you come across some really glaring development issues that can’t be ignored and stay with you.
I’ve seen plenty of movies that I’ve wanted to talk about with people afterwards because there was so much to discuss because of the brilliance, I left this film happy and excited, but also wanting to talk about it because there was so much that was left open and ambiguous. But not in a good way I feel, like a teaser, more of a kind of loose end that needed tying up or cut off.
But thank you for providing a view that gives hope that not everyone out there just wants to s**t on it just ‘because’. Hopefully views like this will see the further development of this DCU and for it to gain momentum – like you said theres a long way to go! People forget that there’s a universe coming OUT of this not being pulled together from its part (obvious Marvel reference, to which I have no problem with) Maybe the harder way round but I took reckon that it will blossom as you’ve said.
This is not a rant. This is a well thought out rebuttal. Spectacular response good sir!!!
Thank you!!!
Good rebuttal sir, but I’ll stick to what I said.
They promised us and more importantly promoted a Superhero against Superhero film. What they gave us was the dawn of the Justice League. They mislead the audience to entice them, and this is why I believe a lot of fans are disappointed. They were not given a film they were promised with.
The entire film was Batman v Superman on multiple levels across the run time (ideological, physical emotional, metaphysical ), while also offering up a mega narrative that was compelling. I don’t get that people don’t get that.
I’ll be watching the film the second time later. Can you elaborate exactly what you mean? Maybe I can see it when I see the movie again.
See Trev Bonn’s analysis:http://theheroicage.weebly….
I am tired of all of the ‘pacing and plot’ comments. Personally, I believe that the true fans of the comics will really enjoy this movie. It is cut exactly like a comic book, and does a fine job of telling the stories it sets out to tell. I’m not sure where most of these knuckleheads got their directing backgrounds, but I think Snyder did a great job here. The acting is strong as well. My only complaint is Amy Adams as Lois; she is just flat out annoying. Also, it is dark. It should be dark – consider the subject matter. If you want some fluffy half-assed superhero experience go watch Captain America again.
This is the absolute best Batman that has ever been created on screen. There should be no debate on this at all – it is the most accurate depiction possible. Down to the traps.
That said, I really liked the Flash/dream sequence portion. I believe he is talking about Luthor and not Superman, but the interpretation by Batman just reaffirms, in his mind, what he believes he has to do. Another outstanding sequence was the rescue of Martha Kent. I believe Lex and Wonder Woman stole the show – and I can’t wait for JL.
Clearly Superman is not dead, but I wonder if Doomsday comes back as well…
Well said
That was exactly what I thought when I walked out of the theater… This movie felt like a comic book.
I heard critics had a problem with the pacing before seeing the movie and so I was looking for it, but I just didn’t see it. I could be wrong, I’ve only seen it once so far, but to me it felt a lot like TDK, especially the beginning where it goes back and forth between the two characters.
Hey guys, I like you and you are entitled to your opinion. I gave this movie a 7/10 personally. I think this movie has been vilified unjustly and I think it’s primarily because of how Zack relies more on symbolism to tell a story than the traditional narrative process. EG anybody that has seen the thesis of Man of Steel will never see that movie the same again https://www.youtube.com/wat… (It’s worth the watch imo). I think the biggest problem you have with Zack’s point of view is that he sees the allegory of Superman very differently than most comic book fans. Most comic book fans see the Donner film as the standard and that’s perfectly fine but as another poster pointed out Zack has really made this religious in the following way.
– (Jor-el) father sends only son to earth to live amongst humans
– barren husband and wife are delivered a child
– he is outcasted from the world and rejected, with only few disciples/followers/believers (Lois, General Schwanwick, etc)
– is even more rejected from the world. (world hating Superman)
– sacrifices everything and dies for our crimes and demons (Lex + Doomsday) + spear of Destiny that “kills” him (kryptonite) (THE MOVIE WAS RELEASED ON GOOD FRIDAY)
– inspires millions through his monumentally selfless act, gains massive following (the entire world)
– inspired followers assume to live their lives by the values of the martyr (Batman’s faith in the world restored
– The following of the religion grows and grows (Batman searching for JL members)
-rapture: HE returns from the dead and those that believed in him join him (Superman returning amongst the ranksof the JL “they join him in the sun”
– and what follows soon after his second arrival?
judgement day: the apocalypse
(APOKOLIPS and the spawn (parademons) of Satan (Darkseid) lay waste to Earth)
I think for Zack he sees a man of grief and pain… (Scriptural Jesus according to Isaiah) and the glory is yet to come after his “resurrection” but I can see why you guys may not like that perspective. I think Zack is just bringing a new perspective on the character from a different vantage point.
I do have a problem with your guys take on Batman “Murdering” because of the hypocrisy in it as if this was the first time he has done it on film unless you guys were that pissed off in those earlier movies which I don’t recall. E.G https://www.youtube.com/wat…
I personally am So tired of this “Murdering” Batman garbage! And yes I believe it to be garbage. Anybody who knows Batman’s history knows he’s killed before in the comics with guns and other means and I have zero problems with it. I like that he killed in this movie because it showed the darkness he was in and Superman brought him out of the Darkness. The jail scene with Lex demonstrated this beautifully when he doesn’t brand Lex.
Also I completely disagree with the opinion you guys had about the resolution of the fight between B&S. In fact I couldn’t disagree more with that point about this movie. I thought it was brilliant. There is no Batman without the death of his parents and the psychological damage is so deep that he still has nightmares decades later (BTW that nightmare with the bat coming out of his mothers coffin was amazingly scary) and to hear her name at that moment was probably one of the only thing that stops him. Affleck played it beautifully “Why would you say that name!” It’s also added to Batman’s ruthlessness because symbolically he’s was gonna save the mother he couldn’t when he was a child. I loved it! And I’m still blown away by so called Batman and Superman fans that use the word murder about characters that have killed in the pass and I love that Batman kills in this movie because it showed how deep he had fallen into darkness but because of Superman he was drawn back to the light by not hurting Lex in the jail cell with his brand… Like I said earlier Zack’s films use a lot of symbolism and unfortunately if you don’t understand or see the symbols than you miss the point. I think in time people will look back at this movie as a revolutionary pioneer of sorts. To me DC now stands for Divisive Cinema and I think it’s great because unlike other forgettable CBM’s people will be discussing this for a long time just like MOS.
Saw it, A mazing
This is exactly and precisely correct
Perfect break down.
This is a NEW story of sorts for superman and the best is yet to come. The scriptural references are huge and are building. It is summed up for me when Bruce reacts at the burial saying that he failed him in life, he won’t fail him in death.
Death of superman remake was not the intent – this selfless act of superman is making him the hero that we know from other story lines, and the hero that the cimatic universe world will never doubt again.
Also, if batman were to actually be in position to stop superman, it would require him to KILL superman as he was preparing to do. This is hard to believe if it were his first kill!!! Speaks to where this batman character is in this story line.
I also felt that Lex was great and well played with the peak being the rooftop scene by far. His brilliance was the pitting of the 2 heroes, and again believable based on this version of superman. He is less than 2 years in, and has not faced a Lex, or other “big bad” yet. How can he be the well established hero from 75 years of storytelling in 18 months on the job???? Lex was also great because he was accomplishing a lot without getting his hands dirty. He should (will) be back.
I feel that the directors cut will explain more, and this was the best they could put into a theater version of 2.5 hours (already pushing it for some).
Everyone is so passionate about critics and other views at this point because we do not want to see the franchise compromised! I certainly do not want to wait for another reboot in 10 years plus!!! I want to see aqua man and flash and then more of the minor characters ala antman (blue beetle, night wing, teen titans, Martian man hunter) – stakes are huge on this and the JL film.
I feel that based on the earnings and the huge hype for ww at this point should put this to rest and we can go on enjoying this for what it is.
I fear that negative views such as those above will eventually get to the studio and force a reset. I do not want to see that or jump to conclusions based on chapter 2 of 10
Yes. My husband and I have been talking through the religious themes (you picked up some I hadn’t considered yet) all weekend! An opening weekend that I have a hard time believing was just coincidentally Easter weekend. Maybe some will be extra critical of this direction, but, for me, Supes has always been a Christ-like figure. Opening night came on what is traditionally called Good Friday in the Christian calendar. It’s the day of the crucifixion and burial of Christ. I wasn’t expecting the death of Superman, and perhaps it was rushed, but I agree with Kryptonian Knight, that this is a great way to build a league that will fight for their moral core… That will believe love for humanity can make a difference. As it was, all hope had been lost for Batman (and I felt Alfred DID have great moments telling Bats that he’s changed without being all “I’m not helping anymore”) The realization that Superman is -here’s another religious aspect- fully God AND fully man with the ability to feel love and loss is what makes Batman stop and reassess. It wasn’t until my second viewing that I really picked up on all of this to the level I believe it is trying to go. it hit me like a ton of bricks when I saw them removing Superman’s body from the wreckage. I wish I had the still. It is so reminiscent of famous paintings like Guercino’s The Entombment of Christ http://www.goblenart.com/th…
All that to say, yes, I agree that the movie was trying to continue Superman’s journey to becoming the Supes we all love. I believe we will get it fully in the movies to come.
I really liked the film overall. More even after the second time. I understand the faults, but think, on a whole, the DCEU is on the rise! Personally, the editing and storylines made it feel like reading a graphic novel. There were moments that held on the screen just like full page artwork holds your eye. Then, other times where the plots are bouncing from shot to shot like a split page would. It worked for me, but I get how it wouldn’t for others.
Ok, so much can be said… I’ve gone on enough. Thanks for letting me have a space to share. I love Superhero News! You guys are great!
For me, this movie was great. If you consider the fact that this movie had the weight of the DCEU on its shoulders, it came out better than expected. I’ve been a Superheronews fan/follower since day one (and will continue to be), so it kind of saddens me to hear all the negatives of this review. I do agree with some of your points, but the big area I disagree with is the heroism of Superman. You guys totally glossed over the part of Supes taking the nuke head on. Not only sacrificing himself once, but twice. And the thing that shows his character even more is that there were no citizens to witness his acts of heroism. I was hoping you guys were going to speak on the Flash’s appearance (look of the suit) when he speaks to Bruce. Maybe next Superheronews episode??? That being said im a die-hard Batman fan, and Batfleck is now my favorite. I cant wait for Suicide Squad in August! But as always, another great in depth review, you guys are awesome, and Viva la Superhero News!
Good call on Flash – seemed to have armor over his suit.
Awesome movie, some people think to much about everything that happens or is spoken about in a movie. They go into a movie ready to analyse and judge every thing about it.
I agree, the movie was brilliant. I think the reason why people hate it, is because: A – they don’t know the DC mythos, and B – they were probably expecting 3/4 of the film to be B and S fighting each other. The story telling aspect of the film was great and the length of the fight between the 2 was spot on and didn’t need to be any longer. They even said before the movie came out that this was like “Empire Strikes Back” which basically is about telling/setting the story.
I love you guys, but I’m like 20 minutes into
their hour and 20 minute spoiler discussion and they just sounds like
rotten fanboys bitching and complaining about how they didn’t get the
movie that they wanted. I hate that! The movie is what it is. You have
to judge a film on its own merits. Instead, they’re just sounding off
about how they didn’t like how the Death of Superman was involved in
this, they didn’t like Doomsday, they didn’t like that Scoot McNairy
wasn’t John Corben, claiming that it had too many plots going, etc.
I’m
sorry, but I couldn’t disagree more on the plot thing. The main plot
really just consisted in covering Batman, Lex Luthor and Superman —
that’s it! Anything else was subplot, like: Lois, Senator Finch, and
Wallace O’Keefe. Those secondary plots then eventually intersect with
the main plot involving the top 3 and their motives, agendas, and
conundrums. Characters like Diana, Alfred, Perry White, Martha Kent,
etc. were tools for the narrative, but they really had no actual fleshed
out stories of their own. Wonder Woman was just sleuthing around and
only got involved to help in a fight, Alfred was basically just a voice
in Batman’s ear, and Martha was essentially just used as bait. None of
those make up an individual plot of any kind; they just assist/propel
the already existing ones.
Adam brought up how they combined too
much with merging TDKReturns, having Lex Luthor, and The Death of
Superman… but how? Do people just conveniently forget how the Nolan
Batman movies did the very same thing? TDK was a combination of The
Killing Joke & The Long Halloween, and TDKRises is No Man’s Land,
Knightfall, AND TDKReturns.
Thanks for the review, really enjoyed it. I personally love the movie and kept having trouble understanding why people didn’t like the movie and your review has pointed things that I can see why people didn’t like it.
I disagree about superman, I thought this portrayal was great, for me this was more of a superman year 1, he’s still learning to be useful, he makes terrible mistakes because he is in a way more human than super anything at this point, he wasn’t a train warrior, he was just a farm boy that probably struggles living in Metropolis. I’ve never been a big fan of superman until this movie, this movie made me feel like superman was just like us even with all his power, he is human, he makes mistakes. I really found the character annoying that when he got his power somehow he got the skills to save the world, but in here he became human first, and you can say he learned to love, to the point he forgot everybody else, yes he could hear everything Lois did, but he never did that for his mother, that showed to me how we as humans change priorities and we sometimes forget important people in our lives. Giving his life at the end was such a heroic act, if he wouldn’t have done that then he would still be that perfect boy scout. Would I have liked more superman saving cats scenes, probably, but I don’t think those would have added much value in this dark toned movie. Snyder grounds his work on current events, we humans are not really good people, we are uncomfortable with change and with anything different, that’s how we are, Superman show us in this movie how bad we are, he showed us how much better person he was, even better than Batman. Who was just cruel and cold (I loved this Batman from beginning to end, I’m talking about the Batman as a superhero). He showed Batman what we should be, even he says it in the movie, that he failed superman. And the people, we we complain about everything damn thing until it hits home and they we realize what we lost, it was great to see how people change, went from leave this planet, to wow he loved us.
The Idea that the word “Martha” wasn’t enough to stop Batman is incredible cold and shows Hector’s lack of empathy (which goes against of what he wanted from superman). The last word that Bruce heard from his dying father was, “Martha”. Now that he is going to achieve his greatest legacy and when he is ready to seal the deal, his dying enemy says “Martha”, “save Martha” that sounds like what Thomas Wayne would have said, and also, probably he realized that Batman was one step away from becoming Joe Chill, he eneded some lives in this movie, but with superman would have been an execution. In my opinion, Batman knew he was wrong, Alfred pointed it out so many times, that when he heard that he probably thought it was a message, Batman trusts his guts and his thoughts that he never shares (we know ‘cos comics have thought bubbles, movies don’t).
I like doomsday and I hope I would have gotten a movie all to himself, but doomsday is such a terrifying villain that he would have destroyed the world in no time, so keeping him just for that period would also allow DC to bring more calculating villains, Darkseid, Braniac.
Lex was, in my opinion, the Clark Kent from the movies. In this movie Clark Kent wants to fight for the trhuth and justice, he isn’t weak or shy. So that role was transfred to Lex, which to me he is terrifying. While I understand you guys are saying all that tough talk, if you knew someone like that with so much money and someone who had congressmen in his pocket to the point of feeding them a candy, I don’t think you would dare to say antying. I agree that Lex needed to be developed, I assumed after those first scenes that nobody would dare to cross him, why, ‘cos he is a messed up evil dude that has his own crew of assisins, he ain’t funny. I think that keeping Lex physical appearance like what we see in the comics would have made the movie boring, there would have been two Bruce Waynes pretty much that were most likely to sit have a chat how to destroy superman, with this Lex, you got the calculating machine that Lex really is. I do agree that there should have been a Batman and Superman folder in that Meta human part.
Batman has killed in every movie, and this is one, there was no exception. This was a Frank Miller batman. Which was even more brutal and definitely a killer. I don’t think this batman really broke his code per say, he just doesn’t mind collateral damage anymore. He gave every “bad” guy a chance to walk away, he shot to the ground first, they just stayed on the truck.
I agree that Snyder burned a few characters, but I think it was necessary to keep the story moving as opposed to start developing all those side characters with side stories. I also agree that there was a lot of open questions, which I think they will get resolved on the future movies. And I agree that now Snyder has the set up out the way, so he can bright things up.
Last thing, I really enjoy movies that leaving you thinking and trying to figure what happen, I feel like I am a part of it and leaves me with some detective work to do. I feel like for this movie I am going to be thinking about it until JL comes out. I can’t think of any other movie that has left me wanting more and that could entertain me more than it’s running time. I want to go re-read every Batman book I own, and go buy every superman book. By the way what are the best JL books for you guys (besides Injustice)?
The movie was so awesome! :D https://www.google.com/sear…
Gentleman, it’s a privilege to be writing my very 1st blog / comment ever! I watch your show religiously and idk what i would do without it lol, i have plenty to say so please be warned.
A little about me, I am a DIE HARD Superman fan, have been since i was a child so going into this film i was pumped although i was also upset because i personally felt Sup’ should have had at least 1 more stand alone film prior to this one. I have watched BvS now 2 times, last night at the 6pm show and today right after work. Unfortunately i left the theater last night on my 1st time watching the movie with mixed feelings and emotions about the whole thing, especially after defending DC the past 6 months against my co-workers who are all die hard Marvel fans. You guys encouraged me to see it a second time after watching your BvS spoiler-free review at lunch time…
I appreciate what Zack Snyder attempted to do with this film, and by no means am I upset with him. The bone i have to pick is with his bosses! Snyder did a fine job, the best job he could do with the circumstances. I’ve been following Snyder since the release of Man of Steel, THIS movie (BvS) was suppose to be a stand alone Man of Steel 2 film but the studio forced him to bring his idea (film number 3) of BvS and incorporate it into this film completely combining 2 movie ideas into 1, which is why its all over the place.
If the studio would just let him do his job the right way, building the complete story over the course of multiple films then we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Man of Steel 2 should have been with Lex creating Doomsday to destroy Superman. With this angle, it would have allowed them the ability to exploit Lex’s point of view and answer a lot of unanswered questions about why Lex wants Sup’ dead in the 1st place (this was not made very clear on BvS at all). If anything, they could have even incorporated Bruce Wayne and Dianna Prince in the background digging up dirt on Superman and each other, generating the emotional appeal of why Bruce feels Sup’ should be stopped as well… BUT Batman or Wonder Woman should not have made an appearance what-so-ever…. just their alter ego’s… nothing more than the same footage of Bruce staring up at the Bat suit the way they did in the trailer… this alone would have got everyone’s blood pumping even more!
BvS should have had those 2 going at it at least 3 times over the course of the film and the bad blood would have been there because of Man of Steel 1 and 2. They could have created some epic fight scenes between these 2, maybe the 1st one could have been a win for Sup, the 2nd a win for Bat’s… then the 3rd and final showdown could have been who know’s how good and who know’s who would have won it! Maybe a tie! lol Instead, we get what only felt like 10 mins of Batman fighting Superman out of a 2 1/2 hr movie… Completely defeating the purpose, of the title of the film… BATMAN v SUPERMAN!!!! This is what the fans are paying for, this is what we all came to see… instead, they bring in Doomsday and team the 2 (quote, unquote) enemies together with a 3rd wheel (Wonder Woman) which was way to much for this film in my opinion.
This of course not being Snyder’s fault, I blame the studio for trying to rush the Justice League to compete with Marvel which is a dumb move… you have to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run… we just went from a crawl in Man of Steel to a dead sprint in BvS which was a bad idea. On top of that, i felt like we actually went backwards instead of gaining momentum… I wish critics wouldn’t bash a man (Snyder) who turned a s**t storm (thanks to the studio) into at the very least a bronze level movie. On the bright side, they can only go up from here i suppose!
I felt some pro’s on the film, Batman looked incredible and his fighting was completely brutal and unforgiving which is exactly how he should be portrayed. Wonder Woman was amazing! I think both Ben and Gal put the critics in their places from all the trash talking when they were cast… I’m 50/50 on Lex, i think Jessie did a great job being who he is on film, i just don’t know how i feel about his portrayal of Lex in general but maybe there will be more to see in the future that will unfold the Lex we all have grown to know.
I felt like this was a Batman movie only with Superman in it… with glimpses into what’s to come with the Justice League. I truly pray, they do not attempt to incorporate any origins stories into the Justice League film about any of these new characters being introduced such as the flash, Cyborg or Aquaman…. we know they exist now thanks to BvS so just bring the team together and kick some alien butt! Save the origins story for a stand alone film like they are doing with Wonder Woman, and show us how Dawn of Justice will save the world.
Ultimately, it pains be to rate this film at a 6.5 maybe squeezing a low 7 out of 10…. a C – or strong C at most… this movie will make a ton of money, but it will not compete with the future success of Civil War which was the studio’s overall goal I’m sure… i hope they don’t get confused by the dollars signs that this movie will generate, it was not as epic as it could have been if done correctly in a 3rd installment rather than rushing it into the 2nd phase of this DCEU.
Hey LeMon Eluett – fantastic writeup, thanks. I probably share much of your background, and I suspect age. I thought you captured the point about the studio pressuring three movies into one really well – this has been a growing worry over the past two years. To be honest, I was quite surprised at how good a job they actually did with it. Knowing now how much they decided to bite off, it’s a miracle it was intelligible at all. One of the only things I struggled with was the guitar riff theme for WW – I do hope that can be revisited going forward. It was like we were watching Bill and Ted 3 early… :-)
I somehow completely missed Flash in the dream sequence – need to watch again to catch that one. Did anyone see the blonde girl Bruce tried to drag in his dream sequence? I’m trying to figure out who that was. I did find the video clips of Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg a little on the hokey side, and I wish they could have cut those a little differently to better effect.
That being said, I’m also okay that they won’t now take 3 full movies to get us to the point where they left off in the end. I myself sum it up to an 8.5 given everything. Could there have been more dialogue? Of course. But somehow for me it didn’t fail on this point as strongly as it might have.
Solid 8, and a B+ with some A- high points. Which may sound disappointing, but its a million miles ahead of what the reviews would have us believe.
I just hope someone pats Ben Affleck on the back for what he did. I’m not sure what else he could have poured into the role, and Batman aside, I’m not sure we’ve ever seen such a convincing Bruce Wayne before. We of course all have our different views on that, but for me he was everything I thought and hoped he might be, and then some.
Here’s to a second viewing!
I am going to steal from Hector and use “Big things”,”Little things”.
Big Things
Superman – He is presented as too dour in this film. Kindness is not weakness. To be kind in a world full of cynicism is courageous. Superman should not only embody the ideals of who we want to be, he should see that potential in humanity. That is what he is fighting for.
Wonder Woman – Received the only cheers in my opening night theater. She came off as the wise fighter that has seen it all before. A new fan of Wonder Woman has been made.
Doomsday – He was introduced way to early, and was not earned. Why not have new threats appear from the dispersion of all the alien tech the world now has? Does superman know who is researching his home planet’s tech, and does he care? His people blew themselves up with this technology.
Small Things
Innocent civilians – Good thing it is night and downtown is mostly vacated. Good thing they landed on that island, there are no civilians down there. Good thing there are no people working at the docks. One of Superman’s disadvantages vs a villain is that he cares about the civilian lives around him while his opponent doesn’t. Use it.
Setup for Justice League – Showing the files for Cyborg, Flash, and Aquaman were not necessary. Wonder Woman makes a comment at the end that this isn’t the first alien she has had to defeat. She could have played a key role in getting Batman to realize that Superman is not unique and killing him does not eliminate all otherworldly threats. She knows there are other meta humans.
Conclusion: I didn’t hate or love this movie either. The version of Superman is not the one I grew up loving. I had to see this, and even after all my nitpicks, I will see all the other DC comic movies on opening night. This movie didn’t change that.
Love the show, thanks for all the videos ya’ll put out.
Most intelligent comment here I’ve read so far. I was hoping for more Justice league set up or intro in this movie because that’s what we were led to believe. Just the same your take would have been better than what we got.
Idk if it’s because I’m more of a Batman fan, but this film actually makes me want to see a MOS 2 and it actually made me like MOS more, which has been on TV all weekend. I grew up with the Donner movies and it’s hard for me to pinpoint what exactly makes that Superman more “cheerful” in people’s eyes. The suit and overall movie is brighter and maybe Reeve smiled more but he dealt with some of his own issues especially in the second movie. I think it wouldn’t make sense if this Superman was just able to shrug off all the hate and blame he is receiving.
I think the setup for the Justice League wasn’t bad but it definitely should have happened at the end of the movie, like WW and Batman looking through the files in the Batcave, figuring out how they will find these people.
I think that sometimes we get so caught up in what we WANT to see, we don’t see what’s right there in front of us. One of the (many) great themes in this film is summed up for me when Clark said Superman was never real (and to Augustin’s point: he wasn’t giving up, he was mourning.) He was, even in his despair for all those lost just inches away from him in the courthouse, discovering the truth about what makes him the greatest of all the superheros. Hubris. Superman WASN’T ever real. CLARK was. It’s the same theme echoed by Alfred when he tells Bruce that Batman wasn’t able to get the info they needed by coercing confessions from six men, but Bruce Wayne was by being himself (smart). It’s why Clark finally understood (remembering a conversation with his father) that his love was his greatest source of strength. His love for Lois and through her connection, humanity. In the end, Superman’s love for Lois and his sacrifice for humanity ultimately gives Bruce his hope again. Beautiful, uplifting writing. Everything Superman is right to the core!
I’m sorry you found this movie so disappointing. I don’t think Zack Snyder is a good director. He doesn’t understand pacing and he can’t handle plot. Those are two enormous problems. His films are ponderous and muddy, often difficult to follow. They lack heart and sink under their own weight. I often get the feeling that Zack makes us want to feel like he is making an important point without having figured out what that point is. For the life of me I can’t figure out what made DC think that he was the guy to lead their franchise.
I still have faith in Zack Snyder. Despite the horrible BvS script, Snyder was able to create a Batman with a lot of potential. Even though it was kinda hard to tell. I think Gal Gadot can be a great Wonder Woman. Both were held back by Terrio’s boring @$$ script. Hopefully the Justice League movie will give DC fans that 2012 Avengers-like feeling.
Your review SUCKS!!! Get a job.
This movie by far is the best comic book movie ever!!!
Just like in the Oscar winner Birdman movie, “critics” are pathetic.
It’s not even close to as bad as the mainstream says it is. I enjoyed a lot of it, but I don’t know if I’d put it in my top 5 in CBFs. If you like it that much, great!
I liked parts of it.
Ben Affleck’s Batman was awesome. So was Wonder Woman. Hell, all the actors except Eisenberg did a great job.
The action was awesome. Even better than Man of Steel. Even the CGI-Fest climax with Doomsday gave me a lot of adrenaline, even though as a whole I didn’t like that battle.
It was nice to see the other League Members, even though they were quick and just felt unnecessary.
The homages to TDKReturns are amazing. Especially the battle itself is wonderful (though the ending of the battle is beyond underwhelming)
The opening credits through the Man of Steel recap scene was really well done.
However, the last third is a complete mess. In fact, the film has 4 or 5 (?) stories that don’t flow well at all.
Eisenberg’s performance as Luthor I thought was stupid overall. Just a Jim Carrey Riddler impression, with one exception. That’s the scene with him and Superman on the roof of LexCorp Tower. That scene was so creepily good, I wish all of the other Luthor scenes were half that creepy. In my opinion, they were not.
The final battle, while it did give me adrenaline, was too jam-packed with explosions and me not invested enough. Sorry. The ending was intriguing though. Didn’t expect that.
Overall, a C+. Maybe B-. The flaws are huge, but the stuff that’s good is really really good.
Other points, I like the idea of a “weak” Superman. Weak in terms of inner feelings and thinking. He’s been raised as a human so he feels like a human, and I like to see that side sometimes and not just the perfect boy scout that nothing can affect him.
Nuts are delicious.
I respect you guys but come on, just because you have a particular favorite comic book storyline doesn’t mean the movieverse has to follow it to a T.
I freakin loved this movie, flaws and all
Everybody feels that they own these characters, and debate every little detail on this great film. I like the other superheroe movies, but there’s no comparing with DC lore. This legends are greater than any other, perhaps that is why there’s so much division. To me is a 9/10
I think you over analyzed this too much this time
First of all, thank you for sharing your honest opinions about the movie. There are things in your review I don’t agree with and there are things that I agree with(not much though). That being said, how come you do not mention and you do not like the philosophical and political aspects of the movie? Personally, I have never seen any superhero movie dealing with philosophical and political issues like Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. For example, in your review, you call the line where Superman says “No one stays good in this world” “shitty”. But in my opinion that line is just perfect because it reflects the reality of the world we live in nowadays. Just because the movie does not offer the stereotypical portrayal of the characters like Batman and Superman it does not mean it is bad. In fact, I think it is a very good thing that Snyder did not stick to the stereotypical portrayal of these characters. By doing so, he presented us something new and different. Moreover, you all disliked Lex Luthor played by Jesse Eisenberg. You said that he is annoying but is not that a good thing? If he is good enough to annoy you or to make you feel something about the character it means that the character is well designed and portrayed. You also criticized the scene where Batman and Superman make peace. Yes, the names of their mothers are the same but it is not the reason why they make peace. Bruce understand how Clark feels because he has felt the same way throughout his all life and he can relate. He understands what Clark is going through and realizes that he is not the bad guy. That scene, I think, is very well written and it is very dramatic and emotional. And as far as the script is concerned, I think it is very bold and courageous to write a script in which religion, faith, and morality are explicitly questioned.
I like ur guys videos and their is a lot of truth to what u say. The movie imo was a little rushed and it had to many flaws or mistakes. I think the youtube channel “everything wrong with bla bla in 90 seconds” or so will have a lot of fun checking the mistakes in this movie.
Maybe not so many mistakes, but there where scenes when i was asking myself..how or what happened? It makes the audience have to figure out too much stuff on its own.
like when lois came to join the fight of batman v superman, for me it seemed like she was too far away to have heard both of them talk about martha.
I hope the r rated version will have some additional scenes wich make the whole movie more plausible. its not much but a couple fixes here and there and for me that movie could have been a great movie.
There was one scene with WW I didnt like , when Doomsday throws her to the ground that one time she kinda smiles at him like “oh this is gonna be fun”, I mean I get shes an amazon and likes to fight etc. but I dont think she would smile during a fight that could destroy the entire city or even the world if u know what doomsday is capable of.
so that scene I didnt like. Else WW was badass.
Or when Superman calls Batman Bruce, I mean ok he heard him talk to alfred with his earpiece, but either batman should have reacted to that, or they should have shown a scene where supes makes clear he knows who batman is. Batman though showed no reactions.
The death of superman was also very rushed like the whole movie. I think the movie could be easily 30-60 minutes longer, give more time to explain cause even if i know lot about the dc universe and understand where they are going i think others wont.
and doomsday with all those lasers and lightnings idk.
for me movie was a 7/10 with potential to become a 8-9/10.
sry for my engrishi but no native speaker xD
Thats interesting, hesh3r. I must say that WW moment stood out for me as one of my *favourite* moments with Diana. I thought it was a nice touch to see her relishing the challenge. But thankfully we can all have our own opinions and take-aways from the film. I cannot fathom for the life of me why there is so much hate floating around in the reviews. I can understand some people taking issue with this or that, but there was so much that they got right. I’m not sure why that’s not coming through!
i just watched the movie a second time and i enjoyed it.
maybe its a movie u have to watch more than once cause its a bit different. or its a different approach in general on the dcu.
i mean its snyders movie and its his turn to tell the story and he chose to tell it different.
the second time i watched i imagined this beeing an animated movie beeing a bit like “justice league gods and monsters” wich helped me kinda get a new angle on this movie. i didnt dislkie it the first time but i think i would up my rating from 7-8 / 10 xD.
Definitely agree with multiple viewings.. its a huge beast to digest! I liked it alot more after the second viewing and prob will more after another :)
The movie was great aesthetically, and the casting choices for Wonder Woman, Batman, and Lex were superb.
However, I felt like the movie was trying to tell multiple stories at a time. It was apparent that the movie was made as a foundation for the Justice League with the goal to earn huge so the studio can justify their cinematic universe. This lead to desperate measures to entice the audience by marketing it as a Superhero vs Superhero movie.
I came in the cinema expecting a Batman against Superman Movie, but what we got was a Dawn of the Justice League Movie. They should have stuck with the latter.
I would give Batman v Superman a 5/10, and Dawn of Justice an 8/10
Hi guys, massive fan of the show/site!
One thing I wanted to open up on was the Bat Brand…thing. I kinda drew from the fact that Bruce is in a dark place, a lot darker than just being Batman. He makes a few comments about where him and Alfred are at after all this time, how many good guys are left etc and also theres the part when he says that they are both ‘criminals’. Then theres the ‘memorial’ to Robin which is never fully explained (I think for me the lack of explanation and basic ambiguity on so many points is what hurts this and MOS the most) suggests that prime Batman was subject to some REALLY nasty stuff which is why he has become so brutal and unforgiving. Not that that makes the idea of Batman killing ANY better at all for me, personally.
My point is that I really liked – if it was deliberate – that the notion that at the end where he goes to ‘brand’ Lex – that he doesn’t – and it for me was because being with Supes had started to draw him ‘back to the light’ so to speak with his (albeit brief) interaction with him. Again, not fully fleshed out, not really said yes/no either way, but I like the idea of that.
That’s what I thought too. I don’t think this version of the Batman killed before this movie or will after. If he was okay with killing people, I don’t think The Joker would be in the Suicide Squad. I think his actions where so extreme because of his fear of what Superman could do and that until he got the Kryptonite, there wasn’t anything he really could do to stop him.
I just couldn’t stand Luthor and Lane. He was a goofy creep (that Jolly Rancher scene). Lois throwing that spear in the water? The heck? Wonder Woman just seemed like a glorified extra. Like how they evened out Batman and Superman’s screen time.
I respect you notes and points guys, but I disagree about the Flash point, it was one of the best part of the movie. I like how Snyder put together different comics and made this piece of art. I did’t like Doomsday appearance, but I think it is just a copy of the real Doomsday made by Lex, remember that Lex have learned a lot when he was in the spaceship, so maybe he learned about Doomsday and tried to copy him. At the end maybe he’s not talking about Darkseid, but talking about the real Doomsday, just an hypothesis. My note? 9/10, I really love the movie and I’m looking forward to watch the Director’s cut.
I saw it at the premiere here in Holland.
To me we should not listen to critic reviews.
What they call “pacing” is a good story with many plots being developed, nothing slow about it, just more plot than the standard comic movies we’ve had till now, in that way i say that this movie was bolsy and different from every other. And i mean it, you will get that feeling too.
It has moments in wich you may feel it jumps back and fourth but it’s very fluid and not distracting at all like some said, remember there’s a lot going on.
The second and third act are just perfect. Doomsday is as it should be, no more, no less.
Wonder Woman….all i can say is i want more from her, but it was the right amount for the story and she really works.
Lex is exciting to watch, and he is fun and scary.
Superman owns the cape now , for real people, you feel his pain and love for humans, Cavill is Superman now.
Batman is PERFECT. Like Cavill with Clark , Affleck is the best Bruce, the fights and assaults of the Batman are master pieces.
I want my Justice League now , was nice to get surprised with the cameos.
People will compare this to all the other comic movies out there, and that’s wrong, if this is the way DC will face its properties then we are all in for a fresh ride, these are “films” with comic characters in them.
Conclusion: buy tickets, go see it, open mind.
Its not just another comic book movie.
9/10.
DC comic book fans deserved so much better. It pains me to type it, but this was definitely one of the worst comic book movies of all-time. It was simply too boring, and wasted way too much time. I STILL like Zack Snyder, but he did an awful job, and Chris Terrio’s script was cringe-worthly bad. It was so bad, that I couldn’t even tell if Ben Affleck and Gal Gadot were a good Batman and Wonder Woman?! And (SPOILER ALERT) why would you end this movie with Superman “dying”?! SO LAME! He shouldn’t have had to die to inspire. Conclude the movie with Bruce, Clark, and Diana, having a conversation about meta-humans, and Darkseid.
Summary: BvS is a bad movie, and a terrible comic book movie. It’s not something that kids, or adults can enjoy. And it breaks my heart. Hopefully the solo Wonder Woman movie is good, and Zack Snyder and Terrio pull off a miracle with Justice League. “Suicide Squad to the rescue”!
They were right when they said they’ve made this a movie about superheroes, while deep down inside, DC fans have been wanting a superhero movie. A DC superhero movie. And I believe we will get that in Justice League Part 1.
I would like to hear where you guys think we are headed with the bold character choices they’ve made. How do you think they’ll bring supes back? What kind of relationship do you think supes and a murderous bats will have? Etc…
Ultimately Zack Snyder, Chris Terrio and David Goyer failed this movie
Wassup Superhero News!! Damn good review guys!
I love how all 3 of you guys are so invested in these movies and how genuinely excited/upset you all get when trailers and movies are released.
I’m going to give my review on the movie overall and for the individual performances also, whether you read it or not doesn’t matter as this forum will give me a chance to vent and say what i want to like minded people who care about these characters like I do.
1. The Story, I thought it was ok, the beginning with Batman’s dream and parents flashback leading into Mankind being introduced to the Superman was fan-fucking-tastic, the destruction of not only the Wayne tower but Metropolis overall and Bruce’s reaction/facial expression, for me that was Bruce’s motivation for wanting to destroy Superman explained clearly, I didn’t need anything else.
2. One of the most disappointing and frustrating things in the movie for me was the Africa scene that lead to the first and was the precursor to all courtroom scenes about Superman addressing the people.
Superman should have been addressing the people about what happened in Metropolis not some bullshit tacked on African incident that later played out around the Lex Luthor part of the story. Also that Africa scene ending should have been Supes superspeeding and stopping the guy somehow? Not pulverising him through a wall, bit of overkill to make that scene look ‘cool’ in my opinion.
3. Batman’s story about trying to find a way to destroy Superman was good, keeping it hidden from Alfred was stupid, wasted opportunity to have some really great dialogue between Bruce and Alfred.
Batman’s detective skills?? did he have any? Using tech to infiltrate Luthors computer pretty standard but cool, not really paying to attention to his surroundings, unlike Batman.
Way too trigger happy also, should have kept Batman true to the comics…no killing, I don’t give a shit that he’s been doing it for 20+ years…whatever. Snyder making Batman ok with killing was another huge disappointment for me for 2 reasons,1. Batman isn’t like that at all. 2. The fight between Batman and Superman could have had the most epic back and forth dialogue about how Batman doesn’t kill, goes out of his way to save people, plans his ambushes, picks his spots to keep the public safe etc and Superman could have countered with how Batman goes out of his way to hurt or even handicap his ‘victims’, you’re a barbarian not a hero etc. WHAT A WASTE!!! So pissed about that fight!!!
Don’t get me wrong the actual fight sequence was visually amazing but the dialogue was dumb and the reason for them to stop fighting was slightly lame, your mothers name is Martha…ok I won’t kill you, but if you look at that a little deeper perhaps Batman sees that Superman isn’t this emotionless Alien killing machine, he’s just a man too with parents and emotions and a life he doesn’t know anything about.
4. For me the characters of Lex and Lois seemed a bit wasted and almost unnecessary. I think Lois should have been in there as a reporter and Superman love interest only, they used her too much and for the wrong reasons, again just my opinion.
5. Lex was too frantic, too maniacal and what was his motivation for despising Superman, wanting him dead so badly that he becomes a genocidal lunatic?? Also how does he just know Superman is Clark Kent? how does he know Batman is Bruce Wayne?? Where are your super awesome detective ninja skills coming from Luthor?? AND Where the fuck has your Detective/ninja skills gone Batman?? Worlds greatest detective doesn’t know that a crazy billionaire is investigating him??
6. Wonder Woman should have been saved for her own solo movie, that being said, for me she stole the show. Gal Gadot is going to own this role even more so in the solo movie.
I think her being in the Meta- Human file on Lex’s computer was enough, perhaps a small cameo near the end with Bruce talking to her, no need for the audience to hear the dialogue either just a scene of them speaking would have been enough with some Justice League sounding theme music? I agree with you guys 1000% that both Superman and Batman should have been on that file also, that would have helped me accept Luthor knowing about who they were a lot easier.
7. Doomsday….ok, firstly I want to say good on Snyder for having the balls to go all out comic book movie and good on Warner Bros. for having the balls to back his play in this regard.
End of the day this is a CBM and this was the Big Superpowered Bad guy.
But totally not needed and potentially wasted, the final fight scene was again visually amazing and it was so cool to see the trinity working together but lets be honest Batman was useless except for the krypto grenade, Superman acted like a teenage boy defending his girls honour and died for no reason, Wonder Woman was badass. People didn’t get to see it either, have them fight in broad daylight so they can see how good and how much these characters care about humanity.
8. For me the final fight should have been between Superman and Batman with the awesome dialogue i referred to earlier in this post/rant.
Wonder woman could have still been used in this scene as perhaps the voice of reason, she stops them fighting or knocks some sense into both of them?? Similar to Cap in Avengers 1 when Thor and Ironman throw down.
I also think Batman and Superman should have fought twice, the first time Batman should have got his ass handed to him whilst being in the armoured Bat suit and this led to him working on the krypto grenades and spear etc.
9. I just realised how much I’ve written and the majority of it sounds negative!! I liked this movie, I didn’t love it and it pissed me off that the characters were wasted in one way or another but i’m still really excited to see Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman and the Justice League.
10. Score out of 10…6
11. Thoughts for the future of the DCEU, still hopeful and lots of potential.
Couldn’t agree more! Most of what you wrote I agree with except for the wonder woman part. She was a cleverly depicted as a mysterious woman in the early scenes up to the part where Bruce discovers her WWI picture. Afterwards the pacing for her scenes were a bit off, why was she investigating the files while there was a huge commotion surrounding the Kryptonian crash site? Then afterwards, why did she decide to go on a plane after knowing about the metahumans? And if she had any, what was her personal view on the controversial kryptonian savior, superman? As for Lex, he was frantic and annoying but it just perfectly shows how traumatically intelligent & sociopathic he is. And if you pay attention, he starts becoming uneasy when talking about power, especially during speeches. He seemed fine doing a speech in the Fly to Metropolis ad. They should’ve fleshed out his character’s background & intentions more in the movie, instead of doing so on prequel comics & fictitious magazine interviews. This movie was a a 7.5/10 for me. I would’ve enjoyed it much more if I wasn’t expecting a 9. Favourite scenes were Flash’s warning & Batman visiting Luthor. They made me even more hyped, just can’t wait for the Justice League movie! Nevertheless, I won’t be watching much of the trailers after this. Personally, the BvS trailers/tv spots really spoiled alot for me, more than the 2nd trailer did.
Justice league part one starts shooting in 2 weeks.
I wonder if WB is freaking out?
Loved it even better the second time
I appreciate your entier analysis gentleman. I almost with the three of you were at the round tables when the writers and producers were developing the story boards for BvS. Okay, I dont almost wish– I DO wish! I will say I still loved the movie. I acknowledge the issues you’ve addressed and I agree. I loved it for what it was…puting the emotions aside as you said in the non spoiler review. But yes, too much at once, yes, a poor segway to justice league (all the build up that it would be Dawn of Justice and that’s all we got), yes not the time for Doomsday or the Death of Superman, Yes they missed who Lex is SUPPOSED to be entierly. (a man of carisma, massive wealth, surface diplomacy, infulence, and some brilliant and selfish shady ventures under the radar), and yes we are slowly having our beloved characters of old pushed aside for something popular in todays society.
I do want to touch on Marvel v DC for just a moment. Marvel has been much more sucessful, and I think I have pinpointed a few reasons why. 1- they tied the universe from the beginning before uniting the avengers. They found brilliant ways to tie the individual movies together and plant seeds for and Avengers movie. 2- Look at images of the Avengers from -say the 80s. Now look at them in the Avengers movie. What do you notice? They look nearly the same. They not only make some effort to respect who these heros have been but what they look like. DC has not really made an effort to build fluid universe. The files that introduce us to Justice League members…what was that? A commercial? It was a sore thumb in the movie. Yes I was sure we were going to see Aquaman emerge from the water to save Lois.
DC has also made to much of an effort to reinvent how the heros look. Are the costums cool? Sure, But the Amazonian worrior is also known as an all American woman…red, white blue…and even white stars. While MoS gave a locical explination for the new look and the reinvented S crest, stop it. He was loved the way he was red briefs over blue tights and all. Where the hell is his belt? Where is the yellow S on the cape? Someone needs to tell Snyder, Warner Bro’s, and DC if you are really making these movies for the fans and not the critics as you say…honor and respect these characters and everything they have always been in their decades of service. DC really needs to start listening to the fans…the comic book and superhero nerds that live this stuff. Because yes, you’re so right, these characters and their canons and mythology means so much to so many, myself included.
The action was awesome, it was intense, and explosive. The actors did a great job. The special effects were wonderful. But I had expectations that just were not met.
But to keep efforts alive to keep DC trying to make movies of these heros we love, I will continue to patronize them.
Thank you again Gentlmen!
BJ
Good review guys. My only criticism to your point of view is the perspective on Superman and what he “should” have been in this movie.
Yes, I would have also liked a canon version of superman in this movie, but it was clear, even from the announcement of this movie three years ago that Zack/Terrio/Goyer were going to put their own version of Frank Millers Superman in this. And that, is not to everyone’s taste.
I also agree that the movie is much better second time round since you spend less time trying to connect all the dots and subplots.
But he’s not even like Miller’s Superman, who was a puppet of the state. At least if he had been, I could have sympathized with Batman wanting to beat the tights off of him.
Mark Strong could’ve been a good choice for Lex instead of Jesse IMO
The movie could have ended in the batcave, with Bruce and Diana looking at files of the JL, having their speech about finding them and all, it would’ve been ten times better than the f*cking e mail. And if they didn’t f*&k around with “the death of Superman”, he would’ve been there also.
Also, if they wanted it to be so much DKR, Batman would’ve used rubber bullets.
Batman V Superman
Now you guys have your opinions and others have theres. I understand yours, but here’s mine.
Likes and Understandment: This movie is supposed to set up the justice league. We get that from the cameos and the nightmare sequence, including flash”s time travel cameo. Which was awesome.(get to that later) This also wasnt supposed to be a superman film. He has his own sequel coming out later. You could say this was more of a spinoff. And the reason why the spent time on batman was because we have this old batman that has been 20 years in being batman. He’s been in a lot of stuff, so his in a darker path. Supermans story was also good in this film. He is this alien with unstoppable powers and we see it from batmans perspective. But we also get told the man of steels story. Superman can’t please everyone and cant be everywhere all the time. And I’ll explain more of that later. They took ideas from both TDKR and DOS (death of superman) comics and tried to make their own which is understandable because you cant base everything on the comics. It has to be different in a way. But they played it out well. Wonderman, was great and they used her really well another Justice league member they wanted so it would be easier to set up.
Dislikes and understandments: Doomsday was a bad thing, like i wanted it just. The look wasn’t there. They should’ve had him more bones and badass. Lex Luthor character was on the right idea but Jesse wasn’t the actor for it. I didn’t understand Louis Lanes adventure with the bullet. It never got solved and it wasnt useful. Now they should’ve expressed the relationship between Clark and Louis. And i get it we were supposed to pick up from Man of steel. But it never sparked.
My Explanations and theories: Superman killing that guy in the desert was dark. I got why he did that. Louis was in trouble and this might be a scenario where this happens often, because she was used to it and maybe superman only kills when louis is in danger. Now we visit batmans nightmare where superman is corrupt and looks like is ruled by Darkseid. When batman wakes up, he see’s flash. Flash tells him “Louis is the key, am i too soon?, you were right all along, fear him, find us, you have to find us” now he has to be talking about superman. I have my theory on why they need to be aware of superman. After the death we see the dirt float. What if the resurrection of superman is by Darkseid. Who brainwashes superman into being this weapon. Hints flash’s time travel. Maybe Darkseid sets up a plan (because in the comics, he always wants to rule superman) Everything is everything at this point.
Moving on, Batman killing probably could be something that happened in the past. This is supposed to be getting ideas from the dark knight returns. Because when batman is interrogating lex, batman couldve have branded him. Which he didn’t because he saw superman stood for more than just a threat. But a savior. So Batman was guided back into doing right by justices.
They had the right idea on Lex luthor. For him batman didnt become a problem till he stole the kryptonite. Lex needed it to kill superman, but since another person was in the way he wanted superman to deal with it and if superman did do it. We probably would’ve saw Lex ruin superman and kill him. Seems like the typical Lex we see in animated movies.
KEEP IN MIND, we also have a directors cut in the dvd. With longer beginning (desert scene) an ending sequence, a longer ending and an alternate ending.
I think you analyse as what you want. No what they give you.
You miss Lex’s motive. because You made a image of Lex in your mind and reject to accept this.
You question why Lex not use secret identitys thing before. Because You again miss Lex’s motive.
You say Why Clark not find Martha from sound of heartbeat because You choose a power set of Superman from comics, which He not show in movie. He have super hearing but not distinguish person by heart beat.
You complain by Scoot Mcnairy not play Metallo. What type complain is that?
Many many more nitpicks but worst part is that most of them make sense but You made up your mind about type of movie you want So instead of trying to understand it, you spend time on nitpicking.
Question Me anything. Maybe I take some time to answer it but I will try to understand instead of jumping on hate train. Every movie has plot-holes, specially complex one. So yeah, Maybe it also has but not as much you trying to prove.
The film is good, not great but it has great moments, we all know this.
If we all pretend, for a second, that these characters are new and we haven’t seen them before; just to really look at the film objectively, then the film itself is a little disjointed and clumped together. This seems to be due to them trying to tell about 4 or 5 different stories all at once in about 2 1/2 hours; which is insanely tricky.
Apart from that, the characters in this film are good and some of the acting is great. Batfleck was brilliant as batman and Bruce and Gal Gadot is beautiful in every sense of the word; she absolutely nailed it and just made the character her own. Henry Cavill has really stepped it up and I think in the future movies we could be in for something special.
I believe this to be the case as I see a direction to where the whole superman story may be going.
The idea I seem to get with Superman is the whole Phoenix rising from the ashes theology.
He will be born again, as a hero and as a beacon of light.
I think he will rise from death, unshackled by burden and no longer tormented by what he should do. He will awaken with a knowledge that he will just do what he has to do to keep mankind safe and that justice will be served fairly to all.
If this type of Superman is reborn, people will begin to fondly look back at BvS and go; ‘ahh, I see what was happening here’.
He’s at his lowest before he is reborn at his greatest and as a true symbol of hope S.
I’d like to add that I thinking Batman killing, whilst a little irritating and against the grain, can be addressed and resolved in the justice league.
He is old and worn and he has been beaten and broken; to the point where he himself has turned cruel and has almost given up caring about the lives of bad guys. He has lost his sense of justice.
A Superman reborn could give a little light of hope to the Dark Knight and he once again realises that maybe there is hope, he is not alone and he has reason again to care and to save humanity and that with the justice league, real justice must be served and he will not kill but he will defeat and be the batman that he was; fair, ruthless but not cruel.
The photographs that’s Clark received; judge, jury and EXOCUTIONER? Had a question mark after exocutioner for a reason. Zack Schneider new what he was doing. He created a batman that had seemed to have been pushed too far. It can’t be a coincidence that Clark received these, he needed to see these as he will be the one to bring batman back and inspire him to be his old true self.
Maybe I’m looking too far into it, but what I see and hear about Zack Schnieder in his films, is that he has deeper hidden meanings and he likes the audience to think and work things out for themselves. Unfortunately this can leave a lot of people confused and you can miss a lot of the; let’s call them ‘Easter eggs’. He loves eater eggs!
This movie looks to have been a set up for multiple projects and that’s why it’s a bit all over the place.
But when the other parts of the puzzle fall into place then this film should become more enjoyable: it’s a great action movie, full of great characters.
I think this Lex Luthor will evolve and grow and age and become more than a crazy kid. He may even somehow get acquitted from his crimes and be back in society, manipulating and scheming, as he does.
There is massive potential within this film but now they have to get all the other pieces right: the individual films and then the justice league, just to bring this all together.
This should not be rushed or it will be ruined.
It’s hard beecause we all want it now!
But this film has to be seen as a warning to that. Too much, too soon and it could blow up in your face and undo so much good work.
I’m hopeful they can do this.
Apologies for the length on this.
I think by the end though Superman does his job. I agree with everything said, the battle should have been one of ideas, instead it’s pretty dumb. But… Batman gives that speech “Men are still good,” he doesn’t brand Luthor, so I think he did make a change, the problem is that it’s not clear that it is Superman who made him do it. I wonder if the extra 30 minutes will do that.
I like to view the whole “Why did you say that name?!” scene as a callback to the death of his parents in this movie. Thomas’ last words were Martha, there was a bigger focus on her dying with the pearls and the throw to her gravestone and such. If Batman went through with killing Superman, he in essence would be Joe Chill and to me that’s what stopped him more than “Whaaaat our moms have the same name?! Let’s be friends!”
After watching MOS this weekend I noticed something; do you think it is by coincidence or did Snyder plan that Superman dies almost exactly like Jor-El does?
case in point, movies are done for the masses not the hard core fanboys or critics. SHUT UP NERDS!!! Also, listen to your selves guys, because you three are hypocrites and borderline racists… i don’t care what background you are.
17%= fanboys
the rest (majority) = non cynical people that are not assholes.
So failing to prevent a bombing inside the capital while scores around him die isn’t “rock bottom,” to you guys?
Hey Guys!
I see your points very clearly, there is however one I’d like to ask you about. Now this may have been answered somewhere else but I can’t seem to find it. I know that the moment with the revelation that Lex has Martha somewhere didn’t really work for you guys but I thought it would have really messed with Superman’s head. Maybe not to the point of Injustice, but enough to have him distraught and not thinking clearly. I think it is easy for any of us to sit back and look at it going, “No that shouldn’t do anything to Superman, he is Superman.”, but really he needs his mother to help him out, as we see in the movie. It is because of this I ” let slide” his initial agreement to go to Gotham, however I wanted more of an attempt to persuade Batman. Anyways, just wondered about your thoughts on this viewpoint.
Sorry to hear you guys didn’t like it. I really enjoyed watching your (collective) reactions to the final trailer, especially the Batman stuff. I personally feel Snyder is the most comic book faithful director out there. Did you stop to consider that the problems (in addition to the editing) may actually be script problems rather than directing problems? As a screenwriter myself I can’t imagine how hard it must be to have to write a script like this where there are so many studio mandates regarding what has to be included. I plan on seeing it again, in true IMAX, as I did the last time. And I’m hoping to still have a smile on my face as I did the last time.
The only thing I could agree with is the bad editing. Other than that I think the movie is really good. The whole ‘Martha making them friends’ thing….I think Bruce didn’t kill Superman because when he was asked to save Martha, for him it was like being given a chance to save his own mother which I think was not a bad idea. Regarding Batman killing so many people, I think this Batman is a veteran batman. He did say in the movie, “20 yrs. in gotham, how many good guys are left?” which clearly suggests that he is tired of his “no killng rule”. And if we talk about the different stories that were going on….well, they were all pointing to one thing. Is Superman guilty or not. It’s just that they were from different perspective.
Great video, guys. Hector, you cracked me up with the after-hours cleaning crew perspective, an observation that would make for a great Family Guy cutaway gag.
I’ve been waiting till after I saw the movie to come back and watch this. Finally!
I was trying to remain spoiler-free before seeing the film. As the reviews came in and my anticipation waned, I decided to read a bit more. I pretty much knew the plot going in to see it last night, and I think it helped my viewing experience. Instead of spending the first time wondering what was happening, I could concentrate on how it was happening. The film surprised me. It’s certainly not as bad as many of the reviews make it out to be. The first half-to-two-thirds really had me.
So much to talk about! I agree with almost every point you brought up. Here are a few additional thoughts.
Every critic lambasted Snyder for including the Wayne murder. I thought it was perfect. Hell, it just played in a few flashes while the credits ran. It was short, poetically done, and set up the whole Martha bit. Knowing that was coming later, it did feel ham-fisted. I would have removed the Martha element and kept the dream. It’s still a part of Batman’s lore, and it was well done.
I was surprised by the audience’s confusion surrounding the questionable deaths in the desert. I thought it was explained well that Luthor had set up that scenario to put Lois in harm’s way to get Superman out there, then have his men kill the other soldiers and leave the world thinking that Superman did it. The movie did do a good job at painting Lex as a manipulator, sometimes brilliant and sometimes like a 5-year-old, like the overboard, red-scribbled notes Bruce allegedly received from Keefe. That one was silly.
About how Lex learned Clark’s name, he learned it when he gained access to the Kryptonian archives. I assumed that he learned Kal El’s history then. I don’t remember clearly, but I don’t think he knew Batman’s identity. Can you check me on that?
The battle suit appeared out of nowhere. I would have liked to see Bruce working on it. They had the Rocky montage of him training; it would have been easy to couple that with the tech side of the equation. Batman is brains and brawn.
I think it would have been far more effective to save the moment when Superman says “Bruce” for when Batman was about to kill him. Skip the whole Martha idea. Have him instead plead, “Bruce…” Let that give Batman a moment of pause. Then simply, “Bruce, please, help me. I need to save her.”
“Save who?”
“My mother. I need to save her. Please.”
Humanize the shit out of that moment! Then, at the end of the movie (in a version where Superman doesn’t die), have the two men meeting again in their civilian clothes. Have Clark formally introduce Bruce to his mother. “This is my mother, Martha Kent.”
Batfleck smiles a thoughtful Batfleck smile. “My mother’s name was Martha, too.” That would have been classy.
Here are the two biggest head-scratching moments for me.
1)Why did Batman go to save Martha Kent? At first I thought it was because Superman had been weakened by their fight. But – nope – as soon as Batman left, Supes hovered off the ground and flew away. Where did he go? The next time we see him is when he’s confronting Luthor in the ship. It made no sense at all to send Batman to save Martha in a protracted rescue mission when Superman could have swooped in, knocked out Luthor’s men, and flown off with his mom. Batman says something before he leaves to get her to convince Superman he would take care of it. Come on. This Clark’s mother. He just saw horrible snuff Polaroids of her in captivity. There’s no way he would sit that one out. Sure, we got a great Batman fight out of it, but it felt really off. It would have been AMAZING had they shown Superman unable to fly, in anguish because he CAN’T go save his mother. Then it’s on Batman’s shoulders to do it for him. That would have been a fantastic bonding moment.
2)Why didn’t Superman give the Kryptonite spear to Wonder Woman?! He could have flown over and tossed it to her with a, “Here, use this!” as he crash landed. You know, toss it to the one person who seems highly skilled with these types of weapons. You don’t need to die here, Supes. It made no sense whatsoever for him to do what he did.
I absolutely loved Diana’s role in the film. She was shadowy, sexy, and smart. She had purpose. She was torn about reentering the world as Wonder Woman. When she did, you could see that she was hungry for it. That snarling warrior’s smile was priceless.
I agree with what you said about how the movie failed Superman. I felt nothing when he died. It was a pointless death, and we simply didn’t get to know him well enough to care. This is really sad to realize, but it was almost a relief to put the poor guy out of his misery. Being Snyder’s Superman was one hell of a burden.